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Contents 1 Expansion notes in spell lists 2 Specialist wizards? 3 Spells 4 Pseudo-casting (wizard) 5 Epic Wizard Level Progression Table

[edit] Expansion notes in spell lists

Should we include the "Hotu-exclusive", "exp-added" notes for the class page spell lists?--Defunc7 00:29, 11 Sep 2005 (PDT)

• I would think it would start looking messy. The name is wiki'ed to the spell description which has the note about that already. I think that is enough. -- Pstarky 00:38, 11 Sep 2005 (PDT)

• I agree with Pstarky. -- Austicke 18:39, 11 Sep 2005 (PDT)

[edit] Specialist wizards?

When a wizard specialisies in a spell school, they get to prepare extra spells. Is there any relevance or bonus to the school in which they have specialised, other than the prohibition from using spells of the oposite school? EG: Transmutation and Abjuration are both opposed by Conjuration. Is there any difference at all in a wizard specialising in Transmutation from one specialising in Abjuration? --82.163.124.16 14 February 2006

• There is a difference in spellcraft checks since the specialist transmuter will more easily identify transmutation spells compared to the abjurer. Both schools take a -5 penalty in identifying conjuration spells. Harleyquin 14:32, 14 February 2006 (PST)

Is the spellcraft bonus +5 for your relative specialty? RoninOni 09:45, 19 September 2006 (PDT)

• No, the bonus is only +2. See spellcraft. --The Krit 04:38, 21 September 2006 (PDT)

[edit] Spells

do the wizard and sorcerer class have the exact same spells or dose one have have more than the other one --24.89.72.155 9 July 2007

• Yes, they both get the same spells. The difference between the two is taht sorcerers can cast more spells per day, wizards can get higher DCs, and wizards can have more spells known.--Aez 16:16, 9 July 2007 (PDT)

Is there any way to change the order of the list of spells in the spell book? They appear to be listed in the order learned, but that is not very convenient. --24.145.0.58 May 2008

• There is no way that I'm aware of. --The Krit 22:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pseudo-casting (wizard)

Unlike other spell-casting classes the wizard can learn spells by scroll. Spells learned this way are stored at the first wizard class level. If that class level is lost through experience loss only, the wizard will have to relearn all the spells previously learned from scrolls when he relevels. On the other hand if a wizard loses levels but not the first wizard level he will gain access to all the spells previously learned from a scroll when he relevels to his original status.

The criteria to cast a spell for all classes (in general) are

1. An ability score of 10 + spell level.
2. Enough class levels to gain cast at least 0 spells of that spell level
3. Knowledge of that spell in the corresponding class tab
4. For non-spontaneous casting the memorization of that spell, for spontaneous casting at least one casting of that spell level

There is one exception to these rules which requires the use of equipment. An item with the property of bonus spell of a class level. For example if a wizard of level five had a ring that allowed a wizard bonus spell of level three, he could memorize another fireball. But if the wizard had leveled to level seven and learned a fourth level spell and deleveled to level five he could use a ring that gave a wizard bonus spell slot of level 4, he could use this slot for memorizing and casting the fourth level spell he learned, even though he is unable to learn any other fourth level spells. This pseudo-casting of spells has the following criteria:

1. An ability score of 10 + spell level
2. A bonus spell slot of that level
3. Knowledge of that spell in the corresponding class tab (Note: for all other classes besides wizard, knowledge of a spell is lost through deleveling if the resulting class level is not high enough for access to that spell)
4. For non-spontaneous casting the memorization of that spell (Note that meta-magic spells can be pseudo-cast)

Note that only wizards can conceivably pseudo-cast spells of a higher level than they normally could have access to.

Limitations for pseudo-casting

1. Pseudo-casting does not use the ability score chart for additional uses of the spell if the class level is not high enough to normally cast the spell
2. Pseudo-casting uses the current class level of the corresponding class even if it is too low to normally be able to cast the spell (Thus a level one wizard pseudo-casting shapechange will have the polymorph lasting only one turn).
3. Pseudo-casting does not qualify for any feats requiring ability to cast a certain level of spells. Thus Auto Still I and Quicken Spell, for example, could not be qualified for simply by the ability to pseudo-cast spells of the required level.
4. When polymorphing/shifting items giving bonus spell slots are unequipped and the spells memorized in those slots are lost.
5. Clerics cannot pseudo-cast domain spells of a higher spell level than they can normally cast

WhiZard 06:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

• Looking at this observation again, I'm thinking it's being made to be a bit more complicated than necessary. The first paragraph is good, but wouldn't the rest be simpler if the criteria to cast a spell for all classes (in general) were stated as the following (only point 2 is changed)?

1. An ability score of 10 + spell level.
2. A spell slot of that spell level.
3. Knowledge of that spell in the corresponding class tab.
4. For non-spontaneous casting, the memorization of that spell; for spontaneous casting, at least one casting of that spell level.

 

This way there is no special exception for "pseudo-casting". All that needs to be added is mentioning that bonus spell slots from a high casting ability are only obtained if the character has at least 0 spell slots of that level on the basis of class level alone (but bonus spell slots from items do not have this limitation).

--The Krit 11:41, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

• But a wizard does not have to have 0 spell slots of the level based on class level alone if he previously learned the scroll before deleveling. Thus with as few as 1 class level in wizard, 19 intelligence, a previously learned level 9 spell from a scroll, and a bonus level nine slot, he can cast that spell with one caster level behind it. I don't think you understand the exploit. Bonus slots of higher level than the 0 spell slots by caster level can only be used by meta-magic spells (which came from a level that you had at least 0 spell slots by caster level) or by previously learned scrolls as these are attached to the first wizard class level. A level one cleric cannot cast implosion from 19 wisdom and a bonus spell slot, but a level one wizard (if he previously learned black blade of disaster from a scroll) with 19 intelligence can cast black blade of disaster. WhiZard 00:35, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

• I fail to see the difference you are trying to present. As you say, a level one wizard with at least 19 intelligence (10 + spell level; point 1) who has a level 9 spell slot (from an item since it cannot come from intelligence; point 2) and knowledge of the spell (learned from a scroll before de-leveling as you described in your first paragraph; point 3) can memorize (point 4) and cast black blade of disaster. That fits my simplification perfectly, doesn't it? --The Krit 03:47, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

• I think your simplification doesn't take into account that there is the 0 spells by caster level criteria for all non-meta magic spells that also were not previously learned from a scroll. Even the meta-magic spells must have the spell that is to be meta-magicked coming from a spell level in which the caster has 0 spells by caster level. So, inherently the spells previously learned by scrolls are the only ones completely independent of the caster level restriction if cast from bonus slots (provided there is one level in the wizard class). To try to put it simply (I know the previous contained probably too much complexity) your ability score of your casting stat and your maximum spell level for your class determine whether or not you can add bonus slots to a particular spell level. Your caster level (with the addition of odd PM levels for the arcane) determines which spells you would (or could) know, and therefore be able to fill slots with. For a cleric, 17 levels is needed to use a level 9 spell to fill a slot, but with only 11 cleric levels, a maximized level 6 spell can fill that slot. The same is true for the spells a wizard learns when leveling up, but if he learns the spell from a scroll before he delevels, he has that spell still available for use as long as there is a slot to put it in. WhiZard 10:42, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

• Can we stay away from clerics for the moment? Clerics learn all level 9 cleric spells at cleric level 17, so losing that level wipes their knowledge of those spells, just as losing a wizard level wipes knowledge of the spells learned during that level-up. Since it behaves the same as wizards, looking at the other class just adds unneeded complexity. Or is this where you think the discrepancy is? You can only learn spells during level-up if your class level qualifies you for the spell level (which is to be expected, given that items never impact the level-up process). Wizards get to learn two spells during level-up, sorcerers and bards follow their "spells known" charts, and divine casters automatically learn all spells of the available levels. Lose the level where you learned a spell, and you lose knowledge of that spell. (Technically, the game does not bother storing a list of known spells for divine casters, but that's merely an optimization as it's easier to record "all spells" than to list each spell individually as known.) The unique thing about wizards is that they can only learn a spell from a scroll if they have enough wizard levels for that spell level, but the spell then gets recorded as having been learned at wizard level 1, so it does not get wiped unless the character loses that first wizard level (which I thought you had explained clearly enough when this discussion started).

 

Looking at just wizards, where does the requirement for class-level-based spell slots come in? I just ran a test case, and did not see it. I took a (multi-classed) wizard up to wizard 20, learned summon creature VI and black blade of disaster from scrolls, then deleveled down to wizard 1. (So I was only able to cast up to level 1 spells by virtue of class.) I gave myself a ring that granted bonus wizard spell slots of levels 1 through 9, and found that I could cast stilled color spray (level 2 slot), empowered burning hands (level 3 slot), summon creature VI (level 6 slot), stilled summon creature VI (level 7 slot), and black blade of disaster (level 9 slot). The lack of spell slots by virtue of class level does not seem to have any affect on which spells can be used to fill the bonus slots granted by items. What steps would I have to take to see the 0-spells-by-caster-level criteria in effect? --The Krit 18:39, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

• I think we're reading past each other here. You could cast meta-magicked color spray because color spray is a level one spell and a level one wizard has at least 0 spell slots for level one spells. You could cast summon creature VI and its meta-magics because you had learned that spell from a scroll and it was stored in your first wizard class level. As you have said above you could not cast spells from further level-up as deleveling forgets these spells. I used cleric as an example because they get both their normal spell book plus domain spells. Even though the domain spells are granted by feat at cleric level one, each one cannot be cast until the cleric has a class level high enough to give 0 spell slots for that spell level. If you are looking at the spells you see displayed in the book as the spells you know, this is inaccurate. A wizard who had learned a level 9 spell and then deleveled to level one where he had 18 intelligence, would not be able to see the spell in his book regardless of what he equips, but level him to character level 4 and up the intelligence to 19 and he will see the spell in his book only if he equips an item giving him a slot in the ninth level. If you want to regard the spells of non-arcane classes as being learned at leveled up (as opposed to displayed at level up), that is one way to see it. But regardless of the way you see it, if it isn't a previously learned scroll, then the base spell (before meta-magicking) requires at least 0 spell slots of its level in order to be displayed (this is not the only requirement, especially not for the arcane who must manually select the spells they wish to appear). If the spell is not displayed it cannot be cast, and if there are no spell slots for the level you wish to cast the spell, it cannot be cast. If the spell is displayed and the spell slot is available then all you need to do is memorize it (which for bards and sorcerers just means resting) before casting. I think the misunderstanding is occurring from point 3 which I am guessing your interpretation of "knowledge" is that the spell is displayed in the spell book. In that case the 0 spell slot requirement would be redundant, but it isn't the case that if you know a spell then you can always see it in the book. The 0 spell slots requirement was there so that you didn't have to keep checking your spell book to see if it would under the right circumstances be displayed; it was general enough to include the non-arcane who didn't physically select their spells at level up. I hope this is more clear. WhiZard 20:26, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

• I'm still going to read over the above again, but there is one point I can pick out as being in error: "Even though the domain spells are granted by feat at cleric level one,". Domain spells are not granted by feat; they are granted by the domain. The domain feats are also granted by the domain. That is, both domain feats and domain spells are effects of the same cause (domain choice); they do not directly affect each other. --The Krit 00:10, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

• My interpretation of "knowledge" is not merely that a spell is displayed in the spellbook. The known spells are a superset of the spells displayed in the spellbook, as spells are only displayed if they are known and if the PC has both a high enough base casting stat and high enough spell slots. A spell is known if it is in a PC's spellbook (not the more restrictive "displayed in"), either learned from a scroll or obtained during level-up (manually selected for arcane casters, automatically for divine casters). Arcane casters know just those spells they selected or learned from scrolls, while divine casters know just those spells of spell levels available on the basis of class level alone (all of those spells, true, but just those spells -- of course a level 1 cleric cannot cast implosion as a level 1 cleric does not have knowledge of that spell).

The statement "if it isn't a previously learned scroll, then the base spell (before meta-magicking) requires at least 0 spell slots of its level in order to be displayed" is a bit awkward because if a known spell was not learned from a scroll, then it was learned during level-up, and the only spells that can be learned during level-up are those for which the class being leveled has at least 0 spell slots of the spell's level. The direct implications here are that a spell must be known in order to be displayed, and that known spells either come from scrolls or are of a spell level for which the class level in question has spell slots. Combining these implications into the quoted statement is not wrong or false, but it does make the situation appear a lot more complicated than it really is.

 

Let me turn the question around. What is your interpretation of a spell being known? --The Krit 00:40, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

• I would include any form of selecting the spell (deleveling over the level of selecting could cause deselecting) as knowing. This would include selecting domains. WhiZard 03:11, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

• By the same logic, you'd consider all cleric spells to be learned at level 1? (Selecting a domain involves no more spell selection than selecting a class, as far as I can see.) I suppose that viewpoint is consistent, but it makes trying to describe when you can cast spells rather messy and convoluted. Is there any reason to think of domain spells as learned at cleric level 1? If not, I'll go with Occam's razor and stick to saying that selecting a domain adds spells to the list of spells that a character can potentially learn, but those spells are not actually learned until the character gains the cleric level at which they can first be cast. --The Krit 22:21, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

• The reason I had (which may seem trivial) is that when viewing a saved character from the character selection screen the following appears: if he has arcane casting then those spells will appear individually under the spell tab, if he has divine casting then the spell levels will appear under the spell tab (with a message like "all cleric spells level 2 and under"), domain spells never show up on the spell tab in this format no matter if you hit their level or not, but they do show up under the feat tab. The fact you can't effectively use the spells I see as only slightly different from an 8 charisma COT not being able to effectively use divine wrath. In the domain spell case the level needs to be increased, and in the divine wrath case the charisma needs to be increased. Either way the potential is there. Your method is simpler and more succinct, but I don't know if the language is clear enough for those who come across comparable odd-ball situations. WhiZard 23:05, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

• Ah, I see what you're looking at -- I wonder if the lack of listing in the spell panel was intentional (perhaps because it was too much work to change) or an oversight (I never really noticed before)? Anyway, looking at that text for the feat descriptions, I think your basis is flawed. The text reads "The cleric gains access to the following spells at the specified spell level". A key phrase here is "at the specified spell level", which I read with two meanings. First, this phrase indicates that the spells may be at a different level than "normal". Second, this phrase indicates when the cleric gains access to (hence automatic knowledge of) the spells -- not at level 1, but at the class level where the specified spell level becomes available. --The Krit 21:20, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Epic Wizard Level Progression Table

I noticed that the Wizard class has no chart for Epic Level Progression. Was wondering why that was? I mean even the Fighter class has one, and all it shows is HP Range and bonus feat levels. Is it that the Wizard does not get any more spells per level/per day after 20th? Are they maxed out at 4 per day? If every thing is maxed.. IE Spells, HP range, Saves and such... Why take a Wizard past 20th level? And if they are not maxed out, why not give em a chart like the other classes have? Grom56 03:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

• Saves in epic levels are all +1 for 2 levels, Wizard HP range is always d4 per level, and the spells granted by level (not ability modifier) reach their maximum number at level 20. As for taking wizard past level 20 there are many spells that get more effective in epic levels (e.g. damage shields, flame arrow, mordekainen's disjunction, horrid wiltering) also the duration of non-instantaneous spells is rarely capped thus allowing for long lasting mestil's acid sheath and epic warding. Further epic spells require 21+ wizard levels, the great intelligence feats are offered as bonus feats for the wizard (higher DC), and with 25 wizard levels only breaching spells and invisibility purge can remove your buffs. WhiZard 17:40, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

• Added epic level progression for all classes that didn't previously have one. WhiZard 21:38, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks for the info WhiZard! Handy stuff to know. I'm always finding out new stuff here. And thanks for the chart. So spells per day are capped at 20th level? Good to know as well. Grom56 02:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

• I'm the person who started creating all of those Epic level progression charts for characters, after I've enhanced the existing pre-epic charts and the created all of the progession charts of prestige classes. The reason those 3 classes don't have one is because I got bored doing it before I got around to them. But thank you WhiZard for completing the project. --SevenMass 11:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC)