Talk:Damage reduction

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Contents 1 Melee vs. Ranged 2 Misc. 3 Stacking 3.1 Pickles and Pendragon sort things out 3.2 General stacking 4 Maybe starting to understand this

[edit] Melee vs. Ranged

Damage Reduction represents a creature's ability to ignore a certain amount of melee damage

I believe that ranged missel damage is also included in this. DaBear 10:48, 16 Nov 2005 (PST)

yea, it's physical damage, not just melee (not even elemental melee/ranged)--Defunc7 14:00, 16 Nov 2005 (PST)

Yes, Piercing, Slashing and Bludgeoning Damage types. --213.166.17.18 07:10, 16 November 2006 (PST)

[edit] Misc.

Added the Class Monk to the list as they get +1/20 at 20th level DaBear 10:48, 16 Nov 2005 (PST)

[edit] Stacking

[edit] Pickles and Pendragon sort things out

Editor's note: The dialog in this subsection was moved from the general stacking discussion in order to keep that discussion easier to follow. A note in the general discussion indicates when this exchange took place. (To save readers comparison of timestamps: this dialog took place entirely between the posts surrounding the note in the general discussion.) This discussion is not recommended for the casual reader due to its depth and length, but may be enlightening to those with a genuine interest.

Also note the difference between damage resistance (20/-) and damage reduction (20/+1). Both are sometimes used interchangebly, especially regarding melee damage resistance feats (they are all called "reduction") but ideally the terms should be firmed up because they are generally different things. If these terms were better delineated, Epic Damage Reduction would actually be called Epic Damage Resistance.

All the feat-based Damage Resistances stack with items (be they energy or physical resistances). Items and spells do not stack with themselves, nor each other. - Mister Pickles 10:42, 16 November 2006 (PST)

Let's not make it more messy. The feat or class based "damage resistances" ain't no damage resistances at all but are instead damage reduction (in fact that is exactly their name). That is why they stack with damage resistance. They come in the form x/- which is similar to the form used by damage resistance, although resistances are damage type specific (bludgeoging, slashing or piercing) while reduction is universal. Kail Pendragon 17:38, 17 November 2006 (PST)

Maybe "reduction" does refer to universal resistance; maybe that accounts for the different term even though it is the x/- form. But when you say the feat based damage resistances "aren't damage resistances at all, and that's why they stack," how do you explain feat Energy Resistances stacking with items? They are both specific, and both called resistances. So the reason they stack isn't because they're different. The common denominator seems to be that they are the same form, thus they stack. - Mister Pickles 17:57, 17 November 2006 (PST)

The feats and class DR are Damage Reduction, although of a different form (and in fact they are "universal"). Reduction and Resistance do not stack between themselves (feats and DwD/Barb apart, but that's a special case) but they do stack one with the other.

Being of the same form does not mean stacking (EDR and class reduction exceptions apart it is in fact the opposite, it means not stacking). In fact 20/+1 DR will not stack with another 20/+1 or 10/+1 or 5/+6 Reduction nor with 20/- Reduction. They don't stack because they are all reductions. Items with elemental resistance of the same type will not stack. They don't stack because they are all resistance. And so on.

EER stacking with items is a bug IIRC. Kail Pendragon 05:49, 18 November 2006 (PST)

I think you misunderstand; I was taking issue with the comment "damage resistances aren't damage resistances at all, and that's why they stack." As far as I can tell, that's NOT why they stack. If indeed it's a bug, then the fact that it's a bug is why they stack.

When you say "Being of the same form does not mean stacking (EDR and class reduction exceptions apart)", this also seems odd to me. If there's any pattern to be found, it's that all feat and class damage resistance of the form x/- stacks with feats and items of that form. That means Resist Energy, Epic Energy Resistance, Epic Damage Reduction, and DwD/Barb Damage Reductions. EDR is far from the exception; it's following the class/feat rule. (As for x/+1 soak DR, I wasn't saying all similar forms stack. I was addressing x/- feats, and specifically that one statement of yours.)

As an aside, I believe you when you say it's a bug. At the same time, it also makes sense to me that feat resistances might stack on purpose, given the ubiquity of damage resistance effects on items. The feat would have limited use if it didn't stack. And like I said, don't all x/- feats stack with items? This bears consideration. Does anyone have a source that states this stacking in NWN is unintentional?

Anyway, I think our points have been made. Certainly I conceded right away that your reasoning for the use of the term "damage reduction" makes sense (that is, it is universal physical damage reduction). It is consistent throughout NWN. It's what you said afterward that seems wrong. -- Mister Pickles 09:40, 18 November 2006 (PST)

By the way, to clarify something I was getting at in the first place:

• I just think the D&D terms evolved to sound right (you resist magic, you reduce melee damage), not make sense within a system. And they've kind of gotten mixed up a little (resist slashing damage... weird). Energy Resistance and Damage Reduction really just refer to one thing: a reduction in damage. If I revamped the system, I would call it all one name, say Damage Reduction. Then you'd have 5/- acid DR, 5/- magic DR, 5/- physical DR, 5/- slashing DR. The 5/+3 type would get another name. Immunities would stay as is (e.g. 50% acid). I should go post this on Wizard's boards I suppose, if anywhere. -- Mister Pickles 09:40, 18 November 2006 (PST)

Let me explain more clearly.

Epic Damage Reduction is Damage Reduction (by the rules) and not Resistance (it's not an opinion of mine, it's the way it is). It therefore stacks with Resistance but not with Reduction. That's the normal thing. Reduction stacks with Resistance (and viceversa). Reduction does not stack with Reduction nor Resistance with Resistance (bugs apart). The only exception for Reductions is the feats and the class abilities stacking between themselves (by design, it is supposed to be so AFAIK)

Epic Energy Resistance and Resist Energy do not stack between themselves. EER stacks with items (I'm unsure about RE, never checked it out), true, but that's a bug, so let's count it out.

Regarding nomenclature: Reduction is "universal" (not damage type dependant) while Resistance is not. The form in which they come (x/- or x/+y) has no bearing on whether something is resistance or reduction only it's universal or not-universal nature.

You resist acid, magic, slashing damage, that is a specific kind of damage. You instead reduce all physical damage, no matter the type.

I might add that there's also immunity to be considered, which stacks with both reduction and resistance, but applies first.

The order in which these "protective" effects apply is Immunity, then Resistance and last Reduction.

I didn's say "damage resistances aren't damage resistances at all, and that's why they stack" I said: "The feat or class based "damage resistances" ain't no damage resistances at all but are instead damage reduction (in fact that is exactly their name). That is why they stack with damage resistance". Given that reduction is supposed to stack with resistance, it is logical that they stack once it is made clear that EDR and DwD/Barb DR are not resistances but reductions. There's no bug in this. It is as it should work.

I think you see a different pattern because of the EER bug. The right pattern is what I showed which comes down from the right nomenclature. Kail Pendragon 03:51, 22 November 2006 (PST)

Yep, that's how I understood everything you said. It's the logic behind your pattern that's confusing to me though, EER bugs or not.

I think it seems clear to both of us, but one of us is missing something. I think we may in fact figure it out between us, since your patience for this kind of discussion rivals my own.

Again, for the 3rd time in a new way, you say "Epic Damage Reduction is Damage Reduction (by the rules) and not Resistance. It therefore stacks with Resistance but not with Reduction." This is the statement that has the logic I keep taking exception to. It's that "therefore" that's the problem for me. You say "therefore", while I say "but that causation seems wrong, it looks like the x/- feats stack with x/- items."

For example, I thought x/+1 Reduction (e.g. 20/+1 Monk DR) does not stack with Resistance. Your "therefore" says it should. Reduction stacks with Resistance, you say. So... am I wrong? Does the Monk DR stack with Resistance? If so, that would explain a lot for me. If Monk DR stacks with Resistance, and the RE/EER stacking with items is an unintentional bug, then I'm no longer confused. Because it's clearly those two items that underly my exception with your statement.

Anyway, I accepted the nomenclature right away.

And yes, RE stacks with items. -- Mister Pickles 11:12, 22 November 2006 (PST)

Monk DR does stack with resistance from items. Test it out yourself :) Kail Pendragon 01:59, 23 November 2006 (PST)

In fact, I did check it once I realized this was central to the pattern I saw (along with RE/EER). And in fact, they do stack. So, accepting that Energy Resistance is a bug, your pattern seems to be the right one.

Sorry for drawing it out, I'm usually quicker. It was one of those bad-assumption, "ass-of-me" moments. Plus, the RE/EER bug really did provide lopsided evidence. -- Mister Pickles 02:27, 23 November 2006 (PST)

No worries, it's better to discuss things fully when something is amiss. There's no stupid question, remember :) Kail Pendragon 02:40, 25 November 2006 (PST)

[edit] General stacking

Any info on monk DR stacking with epic DR, or Dwarven Defender DR? Does 20/+1 stack with 9/-? Considering the multiclass, with a view to getting epic DR III, which should afford 20/+1 and 18/- damage reduction, or more if more than 10 levels of DD taken. --213.166.17.18 07:10, 16 November 2006 (PST)

The way it's supposed to work is that differnet sources of DR do not stack unless otherwise stated -- the Epic DR does stack with DD DR (and Barbarian DR, for that matter), but neither stacks with the Monk 20/+1. When you have non-stackable DR from different sources, the best one for the current situation will be applied, so with 20/+1 and 18/- DR both in effect, you will have DR 20 against non-magical weapons and DR 18 against everything else. Faldred 08:48, 16 November 2006 (PST)

Editor's note: At this point, two contributors engaged in an involved dialog about stacking. To keep this page easier to read, that dialog has been moved to its own subsection: #Pickles and Pendragon sort things out.

I am curious if the great belt type DR (-/20) stacks with the epic spell Epic Warding. 63.226.223.247 15:20, 29 April 2007 (PDT)

Yes, they stack. The belts provide damage resistance against a particular type of physical damage (e.g. slashing), while Epic Warding provides damage reduction. Resistance and reduction stack. --The Krit 20:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok so does EDR III (9/- DR) stack with Epic Gargoyle (25/+7 DR) and (25/- Pierce Resistance) ?

Would it be soaking up 34 points from a +5 sword and 59 points from an arrow? Bromium 08:38, 14 August 2007 (PDT)

• No, the first two do not stack as they are both reduction (applicable against all forms of physical damage). Combining EDR III with 25/+7 damage reduction and 20/- piercing resistance will reduce damage by:
  • 9 points if the weapon is +7 or better and has a damage type other than piercing;
  • 25 points if the weapon is +6 or worse and has a damage type other than piercing;
  • 29 points if the weapon is +7 or better and deals just piercing damage; and
  • 45 points if the weapon is +6 or worse and deals just piercing damage.

(I changed the piercing resist number so it's easier to see where these totals are coming from.) --The Krit 20:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• This above calculation looks like a 1.69 implementation, until then weapons with multiple physical damage types are absorbed by the highest physical resistance that corresponds to their damage types. WhiZard 16:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• Depends on how you interpret "other than piercing". If interpreted as "with something that is not piercing", you get the 1.69 implementation; if interpreted as "with nothing that is piercing", you get the pre-1.69 implementation. ;)

Besides, the question being answered was about stacking. Complicating things by going into the double-damage types was unnecessary. --The Krit 00:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

My interpretation was base on both "other than piercing" and "just piercing" which would be perfect vocab when the 1.69 comes out (When that happens these side comments can be deleted). However, "just piercing," for now (and now only), is misleading. WhiZard 05:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

• I have come to believe that premonition stacks with (greater)stoneskin, can anyone else verify this?

Does anyone have any idea how this might fit in to the grand scheme of things? --121.208.65.46 28 May 2008

• I just checked it, and under 1.69 they do not stack, so it fits into the grand scheme of things as another example of multiple sources of damage reduction not stacking. --The Krit 19:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Maybe starting to understand this

Ok I've been trying to wrap my head around the different ways Damage Reduction is expressed in NWN's. I think I understand that 20/3 means that you drop the first 20 points of damage from a weapon of +2 or less, and a +3 or better weapon hits as normal. The whole +6 soak 5 damage thing is a little tougher. I think this means you drop the first 5 points from a +5 or less weapon and +6 or better does normal damage. 10/- means you drop first 10 points no matter what weapon does damage. But I've seen also -/5 and this seems to be saying that you drop no damage from a +4 or less weapon and +5 does normal damage. I've seen this with resistance to cold damage and the like, so maybe I'm way off base here, but I can't understand the inverting of the - and what it is saying.

I would love it if someone could clear this up for me.

Also... I know this is the wrong place for this question, but have no idea where to ask it... How do I track this so I know when an answer is givin? I've posted other questions and thought I could find them in the "My Talk" area of my account, but couldn't. So how will I know if I get an answer? Other then just coming back to this article?

Grom56 14:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Damage reduction 5/+6" and "+6 soak 5" are two names for the same thing. If you see "-/5", someone probably made a typo and meant "5/-". If you see "-/+5", someone probably doesn't know what they're writing. (Don't drop the plus sign when writing a damage reduction rating.)
  
  To track changes to particular pages, first put the page on your watchlist, either by clicking the "Watch" link (at either the top or side of this page, depending on your skin) or by checking the "Watch this page" box when editing the page. Then when you want to see if there have been any changes, go to special:watchlist. --The Krit 15:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks, The_Krit. That "Watchlist" thing is a wiz! Grom56 06:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• 1. Damage Resistance is damagetype-specific and is final. (bludgeoning 20/-)
  2. Damage Reduction is damagetype-independent and could be overcomed. (20/+5)
    2.1 Damage Reduction granted by class-feats is a sub-case which can't be overcomed by any weapon, due to it's background - it has non-magic nature, as it is physical attribute.

-- 195.182.192.77 17 May 2009